Allegra Hyde is the author of Eleutheria" as well as the short story collection, Of This New World which won the John Simmons Short Fiction Award through the Iowa Short Fiction Award Series. In her debut novel, Eleutheria, is a story of idealism, activism, and systemic corruption, centered on a naïve young woman's quest for agency in a world ravaged by climate change. We talked with Hyde about writing her debut novel, the power in utopian thinking in both fiction and real life, the promise and failures of activist groups, the struggles of being a working writer, and more. Hosted by Phillip Russell and Ben Thorp
Allegra Hyde is the author of Eleutheria" as well as the short story collection, Of This New World which won the John Simmons Short Fiction Award through the Iowa Short Fiction Award Series.
In her debut novel, Eleutheria, is a story of idealism, activism, and systemic corruption, centered on a naïve young woman's quest for agency in a world ravaged by climate change.
We talked with Hyde about writing her debut novel, the power in utopian thinking in both fiction and real life, the promise and failures of activist groups, the struggles of being a working writer, and more.
Hosted by Phillip Russell and Ben Thorp
You can visit Allegra Hyde’s website here.
You can follow Allegra Hyde here.
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Phil 00:01
Cool so we usually start with a little intro about you and then we just hop right in. If there's anything amiss with it, just let us know and we can we can definitely rerecord it and stuff like that. Yeah, like no cool Savannah, you're recording. Allegra, you're good. Awesome. Allegra Hyde is the author of the new novel aloo theoria, as well as the short story collection of this new world, which won the John Simmons short fiction award through the Iowa short fiction award series. She is a recipient of three Pushcart Prizes, and her writing has also been anthologized in best American travel writing, best women's travel writing best of the net and Best Small fiction as well as many other venues. Currently, she's teaching writing at Oberlin College. Allegra, thanks so much for coming on to talk with us.
Allegra 00:59
Oh, thank you for that intro. I'm really happy to be here. Awesome. Yeah, I think we always like to start the conversations these days, just asking, you know, how people are doing how is it? How's it feeling? You know, your, your new novel just came out? You know, what's the vibe? The vibe is? It's weird. It's so strange to have had this story. And this project just live inside my mind for five years more plus, and now for it to be out in the world, accessible to anyone. But I'm also just super grateful that it's been able to be out there. And it's been really fun doing some events and hearing some feedback. So I would say it's been weird in a good way. I feel that I feel like a lot of the creators we've been talking to recently have had that exact response, like things are weird. It's, it's cool. But also, like, I don't know what to make of it yet. I'm curious, like, you know, before we started recording, you were saying you are going to Aw, P tomorrow. I think one thing we're really interested in, especially after the last year is this, like for creators who are releasing projects in, you know, this ongoing pandemic? Like what has that experience been like for you? And I don't know if your short story collection also came out during the pandemic, but like, you know, in general, what kind of what is the experience been like kind of launching the novel? Yeah, I think the story collection came out in 2016. Okay, so it was pre pandemic, but it did, came out in October, and then November hit, and we entered the Trump era. So it kind of came out in another sort of disaster. But I guess, putting a book out in 2022. In a way, you know, we're amidst many disasters, but I think it was, in some ways easier than if the book had come out, right when the pandemic started and, and folks didn't know how to use Zoom yet to set up events. So I think the machinery is sort of in place for, for authors to be able to, to reach readers, we've all kind of figured out how to do our best within these new parameters. So you know, I do really love in person events, I love getting to just feel the energy of a room to be able to look potential readers or readers in the eye. And, you know, I can't do that on Zoom. But it's it's better than nothing. So I'm I'm glad that it's there at all. And of course it it creates some accessibility for people who might not have been able to go to in person events anyways.
Ben 04:00
Do you think that this kind of has had any impact on your on your writing or maybe your relationship to writing?
Allegra 04:08
Yeah, I live alone. So the pandemic was a real solo journey. For me, I do have a cat. So it wasn't totally solo. But I think that during the pandemic, I just realized that in order to make sure that I was still connected with my literary community, I had to just make go take the extra step to reach out to people and have just long distance writing relationships where we're exchanging work, we're talking on Zoom and, and that way, I think I kind of was able to build some stronger writing partnerships, because it pushed me to take that extra step. And during the pandemic, I actually wrote a lot and I wrapped up the edits on the novel and completed a second story collection manuscript called the last catastrophe. So it probably did absorb some, some vibes from what was going on. But I tried to just use that time as best I could. Would I do it again? That way? No. But that that's what happened.
Ben 05:26
I am wondering, you know, in setting up kind of talking about the book, I mean, it feels like it's really interested in this question of movements, and what makes for effective movements and what makes for effective social change? And I'm wondering if you can maybe just talk about like, what, what drove you to this question? And I'm also, I guess, interested in how much of this is also about your you yourself kind of unpacking these questions around? What makes for an effective change, especially around something like a climate movement?
Allegra 05:57
Yeah, on a personal level, I, of course, ask myself every day, am I living the right life, given the climate emergency that we're in? And should I be, you know, blowing up pipelines or something? Is it am I really kind of taking an easy out by teaching creative writing and, and writing my novels? I hope, that by writing novels about climate change, and by kind of participate in the conversation and just contribute to the cultural consciousness, in some sense that that is a contribution, but it never feels like enough. And it honestly, it probably is not. But it's, I think the book is also a product of my own reckoning with how to how to live a, an ethical life, and our current moment. And I think I also want to when it came to the book itself, which explores social movements, which asks, like, what would it take to actually catalyze a mass mobilization that truly move towards a sustainable future? I wanted to use fiction as a space to play out that question and play out scenarios and see where a story could take us. And that felt that felt useful to me as a human person, and interesting to me as a writer. And I have more to say about that. But oh, I will pause there.
Ben 07:38
Yeah, you know, one of the things that I was thinking about as I was reading is that, you know, it is a it is a novel that feels like it's it's very interested in kind of the logistics of these movements, you are really kind of mapping out, you know, maybe just to walk listeners through it, you know, we've got a charismatic leader who's gently culty but we also have, you know, this climate scientists on this, you know, Island, you also have kind of these influencer kids who are kind of hopefully there to draw some national attention, international attention to help kind of spur this movement. And so I, I'm wondering how much time was spent on your end thinking about, I guess the the logistics side of things, because it feels like this novel is, is really interested in in. Alright, what does it really take? What does that look like? Yeah,
Allegra 08:25
I mean, I guess I was really interested in logistics. I've never thought of it in that way. But I think this goes back to maybe an initial goal for the book, which was to write, quote, unquote, climate fiction that wasn't just showing a doomsday scenario, and kind of just trying to show surviving in a apocalyptic landscape I wanted to show people wrestling with solutions are possible solutions. And maybe those solutions turned out to not be perhaps the way we would want to go. But it seemed useful to, again, use fiction as a space of of testing of kind of playing out a thought experiment and showing how things could happen. And it did take a lot of research, I read a just a ton of books that were about, like, climate projections that were about social movements that were about environmental psychology. And I, I think the thing that fiction can do is synthesize a lot of different fields and bring them together and put them in conversation, hopefully in an engaging in an engaging way. So I tried to just bring together all those ideas in the book. Yeah, I think maybe a good place for us to go from there is this kind of drilling down a bit into the you know, the protagonist or the main character, maybe it's a better term For the novel with Willa marks, and I'm curious, you know, I think there's some more specific questions I want to get into with her later on. But like in general, maybe how would you describe Willa as a character and kind of the journey she's going on in this book? Well, Willa, is a young woman. And she's someone who grew up with doomsday prepping parents, and kind of lived a very isolated childhood, out of New Hampshire. And her, her journey in the book is one of trying to make her way in the world and trying to find a way to live that pushes back against her her parents way of seeing the world. So if our parents were people who had kind of given up on the possibility of the world getting better, we'll reverses that by approaching reality with a kind of relentless optimism, I would say, and a kind of extreme hopefulness. And that brings her into contact with a lot of different types of people from Harvard professor to Freegans, to ultimately the the group at Camp hope on the island of fellow theria. And so she's someone who's kind of taking optimism to an extreme. She's an idealist, I would say, she's a seeker. And those things can have concern for sometimes, and sometimes they can cause a lot of trouble for her and for other people. So I hope and that at the end of the day, she's a complex, complicated flood, human, like all of us. Yeah, I think you kind of touched on one of the things I was really interested in is that, um, and my, in my eyes, one of the key aspects of the novel and willows character specifically, is kind of this hopeful thinking that she has in the wake of crises, whether it's climate change, or, you know, personal relationships that she has with people like her. Her love interest, Sylvia, Sylvia Gill, who's the Harvard professor, in some ways, it's almost like that optimism, or that hopefulness is, is a form of activism in and of itself, it's a radical choice for her when she's juxtaposed against some of the other characters in the novel. I'm curious, like, how you came to that, or, you know, maybe why that showing that kind of mindset was important for you. And, you know, making this book? Yeah, I think, when I observe how people are reacting to climate change, generally, there seem to be kind of two dominant modes of thinking. One is just a, an approach to climate change that ignores it, or assumes that if it's there, it will, it's like hundreds of years down the line, we don't have to really worry about it business as usual, we're just going to keep going. And then there's another kind of dominant mindset of despair, basically, which means you've read the statistics, you've looked at what's coming, and it feels overwhelming. And the reaction is a kind of nihilistic stance, ultimately, and both of those approaches won't fix the problem. And so I'm interested in putting hope and possibility into the conversation more. But, but with the caveat that it's hope and possibility that also brings a reckoning and an understanding of the past that got us into this crisis. And in the first place, I think, hope and possibility that doesn't also kind of carry with it, the just a recognition of the just the colonial white supremacist extractivist kind of mindsets that have kind of undergird the crisis is a is a hope that will will ultimately turn back in on itself and just perpetuate those forces.
Ben 14:34
Yeah, I really I think there's a one of the three lines that I really loved is this this I think you keep coming back to this motif of kind of history and memory there's these vignettes between some of the chapters where you're talking about the history of the island, which is located somewhere I think in the in the Bahamas. And so you're you're basically kind of bringing up the history and talking about the history because you know, here we have camp hope There's activists, largely white movement that is located on these islands that is ignoring some of the history of colonization that has happened to there. And I think in some ways, I see implied is maybe doomed to fail in some ways, because of its ignorance of history. And so maybe you can talk about the importance of kind of, or the value of history and memory in the context of a working activist movement.
Allegra 15:26
Sure, I think in some ways, you you said it, yourself. Quite well, there. So but I mean, I guess to reiterate, I think that a movement that isn't prioritizing the voices of marginalized groups, the leadership of marginalized groups, is a movement that is both ethically wrong, and also, I think, just structurally doomed to fail as well. So by having that thread of history, run through the novel, I wanted to have that as a touchstone, as we see a camp hope, kind of go through its own process and, and kind of play out what would happen what, in this in this fictional scenario and, and hopefully leave readers with a sense of just what a movement for moving forward would actually require? Hopefully, I mean, I hope that readers leave the book ultimately with it with a sense of possibility. Alongside as I've said, that awareness.
Ben 16:40
Yeah, I think there's a there's a, a way of thinking about because I also see, I think, is Phil's kind of saying this, this hopefulness in the protagonist. And I will say, I think sometimes they feel frustrated by that by kind of hopefulness that I see in the in the climate movement, because I think sometimes it can be hope, without action or hope, without a kind of reality or a reality check of like, just how dire sometimes the reality is. But I also see, I think, when I when that memory in that history is kind of undergirding it, that there is also there is that sense of we need to have an understanding of reality that we can inject our hopefulness into, I mean, can you maybe talk about those things they felt like they were at times in, in conflict, you know, that there's a tension between them here when we're thinking about, like a realistic reckoning, but also trying to find in some ways the silver lining? I mean, can you talk about how you grappled with that?
Allegra 17:46
Well, I think the grappling with that was part of writing the book over and over and over again, through the revision process, and trying to find a way to put those two things in conversation also tell an engaging story. And through revision, I did my best to kind of show how moving forward necessitates a kind of a paradigm shift that holds those two things at once, which isn't easy. But I think is ultimately the the only way to do it. Yeah. You know, I mean, this is maybe shifting gears a bit, but something that I also really loved in the novel is there, maybe emphasis isn't the right word, but there's a lot of kind of characters who are interacting with social media or like, or influencers or kind of using technique using kind of modern social technology in ways that I find really interesting. I loved the how Willa kind of sees these selfies, and pictures taken of her as these terrarium. They're kind of like these time capsules, where she's able to, you know, see herself in ways that she may be can't in her day to day life. I thought that that was a really interesting way of thinking about how we engage with, you know, social media photography today. And I think that kind of motif of around Terraria mums is kind of like a key tension throughout the whole novel. There's like camp hope, in some ways, is this terrarium within the island is like you kind of enter it and you're in this this vacuum and then whenever willow leaves, it kind of feels like catastrophe happens because she's having to actually interact with the world versus, you know, like her. She lives with some twin cousins and Boston for a while. And there's a tension between like these twins who We'll kind of for all intents and purposes, kind of are out in the in the world a lot kind of trying to be influencers and trying to kind of be noticed, versus Willa who's kind of isolated, grew up kind of isolated and alienated. And kind of meandering here a bit. But I think there's an interesting tension there of like, the twins, for instance, who never really feel like they kind of are at home and the society that they're living in versus Willa who ultimately finds a place for herself by putting her herself into these uncomfortable situations. I'm wondering if maybe you could just talk a little bit, maybe about the twins and willows relationship as a way to, to get into that. Yeah, I love how you put that. And I think the cousins who take these photos of themselves, that are are staged in artificial in many ways, and they put them on the internet, in a way live kind of vicariously through this idealized version of themselves and will for a while does that to that photo, or those photos as this idealized enclosed space, as you said, are kind of equivalent to camp hope as this closed, idealized environmental compound. And they both can only be perfect in an kind of, if they're outside of reality, in a way, and I think that relates to the books, the book and my interest in utopian, the utopian imagination, and the sort of tension of pursuing or seeking perfection and the inability for perfection to be truly found truly inhabited. So I think kind of in just in terms of Willis journey through the book, she encounters a different ways of basically coping with reality. And so the cousin's relationship to the photos, that's that's how they were coping with, with crisis, essentially. And the Freegans, who she meets, they cope another way, by trying to live trying to find a way to live ethically. Professor Sylvia, go, again, has like, has her kind of institutional Castle around her, and then camp hope is as yet another way. So by going through these different different modes of, of coping, we are hopefully kind of get a sense of this. The different ways that people in our in our real world are currently dealing, but I think everything in the novel is a little bit exaggerated and distorted. And in this kind of slightly surrealist way. Yeah, it's interesting. I was wondering, as I was reading, like, as you kind of just articulated, there's kind of, you know, there's there's Willa, the cousins, the professor Campo, I'll kind of say those are like almost four factions, or like four kind of different different sections that are kind of in conversation throughout the novel. I'm curious, maybe like, where the genesis of the project came from was camp Pope, the kind of the, the gateway into exploring all of this. And, you know, the reason I ask is, is, we were just talking to another author, last week, and, you know, one section in their book that we found to be like, so paramount to the whole thing. And it ended up being that they basically had wrote that, like, right before turning it in, on like, final edits, or something like that. So I guess I'm just curious of like, what it was like, kind of conceptualizing the book. Yeah, I think there's a lot of ways to answer this question. Because on one hand, I could say I started working on it, I don't know five years ago at the end of graduate school. But I think a more honest answer is that I first wrote a short story called shark fishing that was actually in my first collection. And even though the longest story in the collection, I just felt like it. I wasn't saying everything I wanted to say or I hadn't quite said it. Right. And camp hope is, is in that story. So doing the novel was a a way to, to go deeper in that story and to go deeper into camp hope. But at the end of the day, I think it was about going deeper into Willa, because I think so much of the book is really a project of unpacking her motivation for taking this really extreme action. And so a lot of the novel writing process was a I'm trying to get understand her as a character I, there are so many times while I was writing that I, I, I just I would almost get mad at her. Because I'd be like, Why are you doing this on the page? You know, even though I, as an author are making her do these things? I think the thing about maybe first person specifically is that it can, it can almost feel like you're, at least for me, like you're transcribing a voice in your head, basically. And that voice can seem like it's coming from somewhere else, at least for me. So maybe that's why in some ways, Willow would tell me things were telling me she had done things in a sense, and then I would try to understand why. So that was a big part of the book. But if we take this question back even further, before writing that short story, I just spent a lot of time in the, in the Bahamas, in doing environmental work there. I spent time in New Zealand as well, and a lot of add a lot of utopian. We could say utopian communities or aspiring utopian communities, hippie compounds. And I think it just my interest in groups of people who are trying to figure out different ways to live has been just a long term lifelong fascination for me, and and so the novel kind of draws on a lot of just experiences I've had out in the world, interacting with groups that are trying to live differently, usually failing, but going for it anyways.
Ben 27:00
So I was I was reading up on your short story collection, which as I understand it is also kind of interested in this question of utopia. What what do you think it is about, I guess utopia is an idea that you feel drawn to?
Allegra 27:13
Well, I think, on one hand, I really admire people who have just the gumption to step away from mainstream society and try something different. And I just admire that kind of radical mentality. You know, one of the first utopian communities I learned about was this place called Fruitlands, which was founded by Bronson Alcott, Louisa May Alcott stead. And it was a kind of proto vegan compound. And they had some really wild ideas about what would be sort of ethical, agricultural existence, which came up against some hard truths, because they're in Massachusetts, and it gets really cold there. And farming without animal labor can be pretty tough. So I was just interested in kind of the, the radical mentality. And I was also interested in the sort of comedic aspects of these enterprises, because they, they do fail so spectacularly so often. And so I think the tension between idealism and practicality, has just always fascinated me. And I love to just really get into these tensions between like, an individual and a community, or kind of Yeah, other kind of possible points of conflict, I guess, within those sorts of spaces. That's interesting. You know, I think I really appreciated that tension, especially in the academic settings. Like, you know, I added an MFA at University of Washington and, and a Master's at Ohio University, and, you know, as teaching during those four and a half years, and I think, yeah, once you're kind of like working within that system, at least, at least for me, I kind of felt like, that's where I was seeing so much of the compromise and that kind of idealized perspective that I had of like, what academia was or what, you know, being a professor was, and I really did feel that like Sylvia Gill, as a character does a really good job of personifying a lot of the struggles that I imagine, you know, many people like myself, who worked in academia for any amount of time feel in terms of navigating, you know, your own personal ideologies while also trying to like live a life you know, and live so not really a question there, but I thought like Sylvia Gill is a really good, you know, personification of that.
Ben 29:51
And maybe, I guess the question for me would be like, you know, it feels like the the tension is there between that kind of the the cynicism of academia, the sometimes cynicism of academia, and the hopefulness of activism. And yeah, I'm wondering, yeah, well, how that how that came about for you whether that that was a feeling of kind of moving through both academic and activist spaces that you've kind of felt that to be to be true?
Allegra 30:20
Yeah, I think I'm in one sense, it is a product of just having experienced academic academia, myself, and also having, you know, dumpster dive with, with Freegans. But I think the decision to include Harvard specifically was kind of rooted in the larger architecture of the story that I wanted to tell. And that goes back to the history of the island. And I was one of the first things I learned about the island of the real island of Eleuthera was that when Puritan colonists showed up there with the intention of founding a ideal society, they renamed the island le theoria, eventually that I would get dropped. And they just everything, it was a debt disaster. And basically, Puritans in Boston sent them some supplies as as assistance and to say thank you, those Puritans in the Bahamas sent back a ship full of Brazil Leto would, and that would, would be sold and would ultimately endow Harvard University. And I was just really interested in that relationship between these two places, this like extremely powerful institution that has produced all these world leaders, etc. And a country that has to bear the brunt of a colonial legacy and climate change. And just. And I just just really interested in that relationship across time and place and in the novel, I wanted to be able to depict a story that thought on kind of a larger scale, and put all these places and people in conversation, because when we make decisions about climate change in our, in our kind of present moment, you know, as I've been saying, I think we we have to have that, that memory, that awareness of the past and recognize how, you know, a storm in one place that causes a bunch of damage isn't it isn't just the responsibility of that, that one city or that one town, it's like, we all are connected to it. And we all are responsible, and we're all in this together in the end. And that's the kind of, I guess, just understanding that I hoped would come through you know, one thing I've been asking a lot of writers recently, very selfishly, is that, you know, Ben and I are both working on what I'm what I'm saying longer works, novels. And I'm curious, you know, especially, you know, you have this one short story collection that's already out, you have the last catastrophe, which is coming out. elude theory, I started from a short story. I'm curious, like, What's your relationship to the novel and novel writing? Is it something that's comfortable? Or was that kind of like a pretty eye opening experience? You know, you know, making this kind of book. I have found it so hard. So grueling. I think I have always felt so much more comfortable with short stories, in part because I could just sit down at my desk and write out the whole of a story. And maybe it's, maybe it has some holes in it, maybe it needs will need to get edited like 100 times, but I could see the whole arc and I can kind of understand it, hold it in my mind. But you can't do that with a novel or else I just didn't have the right drugs to do it or something. But I couldn't sit you know, straight through for like a week and, and write it out. And so having to sort of figure out how to hold this larger thing in my mind how to maintain narrative momentum. Just required a lot of like, back to the book study. I think I read about a lot about screenplay. was for instance, so that I could just better understand plot mechanics. I read a ton of novels just written in the first person so that I could figure out how to just deal with having the same person talking for 300 pages, which is like a lot. And so it was really, really hard. And yet I also feel compelled to do it again. Started yet what, um, what sort of things? Are you both kind of coming up against right now and your work? And your longer project? And the longer work? Yeah. Better?
Ben 35:47
Yeah. I think I yeah, I was gonna say, I think for me, I think I think short fiction, short nonfiction and short stories. I'm realizing how many of my habits are about getting me out, like getting in and getting out as quickly as possible. And yeah, I guess I'm, how do you engage with, I just, there's something about my my brain that is wired to be like, you can't take if you take up too much time a reader is just going to jump ship. And I feel like, in some ways, I don't know if this is true, but you can you can tell me if it is. I just have to get over that. And I'm wondering like, what are the what are the tricks for kind of telling yourself, okay, yes, we can spend some time we can build this moment or this scene out a little more, and that's okay.
Allegra 36:33
Yeah, I mean, I, I hesitate to speak from any place of expertise, I feel like I have this one book. But maybe after I've written like seven novels, I'd be like, maybe. I don't know, I think the thing I tried to tell myself with writing the novel was that I could, I could just write a lot and then cut it back. Because I also have that just instinct towards concision that I think you, you pick up when you're writing, in short, in a short form. But with a novel, you can do just have more space. And in that more space in like that extra space for me meant oftentimes going deeper into character motivations. And that's also what my editor was often pushing me to do, like, really getting into what is your protagonist, like, thinking and feeling so we can really be with her as a reader and then feel it too. And, and maybe that's why I don't know many people have just can connect with characters and novels in a deeper way, as readers, because you, you just get to know that person so much more, and you get to just really experience their experiences with them in a, in a way that feels more like getting to know a person in real life. And yeah,
Ben 38:05
you mentioned earlier this, that you were like, Oh, I'm now having conversations with Willa, frustrated with the things that she wants, I think maybe two parts, like, when did that start happening? And what point where you're like, oh, my gosh, I'm talking to will. And then and then what were the conversations were like, I am most frustrated with the decision that you're making, and that I'm now going to write and kind of try to engage with.
Allegra 38:29
I mean, I think it was happening throughout the process just in different ways. And I mean, she was more of a stranger to me at the beginning. And then, through the middle, I probably was getting most frustrated with her. And then towards the end, especially as I kind of did those final edits on the book. I felt a lot of tenderness towards her. And I think when I first started hearing from really early readers like barbers hear the mention Willa, something about her, it almost was like, oh, you know, her too. We had this mutual friend or something. And that was that was part of the weirdness that has encompassed the publication of the book. I love that. And you know, it's it's funny, like I My background is mainly in creative nonfiction and writing essays and short stories. And I think, for me, one of the things I'm struggling with is kind of what you're what you're getting out of, like, I'm writing a first person novel, and Ben and I are always talking about like, Ben, maybe I don't put words in your mouth, but you tend to not like first person or at least writing in first person.
Ben 39:49
I think it's I think it's hard. It's harder to pull off.
Allegra 39:51
Yeah. And it's, um, I find that lately I've just been like reading it was great reading your book, because it's like, oh, how do I even get this This person to the next moment like I feel like almost like they're, they're speaking to me in another language. And right now I'm kind of deciphering what they're saying. And yeah, I think in general, this novel writing compared to some of the shorter work I've done really has elucidated some of my tendencies or blind spots that maybe I don't necessarily realize I'm in a shorter space. So yeah, I guess I don't know, in general, I think it's, it's been a, it's been an interesting experience, probably, because it's such a long project, right? Like, you kind of have to return to it, knowing that it's not finished. And it's not kind of what you are envisioning, with the hope that, you know, one day it'll be close to that. Yeah, it, it really takes that it really is a kind of act of faith to just like, work on it in these small and small increments, and know that at the end of a workday, you may feel no closer at all to the goal, but that it like it's part of incrementally kicking the can down the road in a way. And I don't know one other thing about novel writing that just felt really true to me, by the end of the process was that you can't hide from yourself or from other people and a novel because it's so much space and so much material. On a craft level, you can't hide from the things that you may not be as strong as you want to be in. Because they'll just don't come up unless you really have some kind of extreme formal premise of some kind. And then also, I think your own thought patterns and ideas, just an experience as kind of bubble up even in fiction and that you're, I don't know, it's it, it's really, I mean, putting a long work out there is feels so vulnerable, just because you even infection, like so much of you is just there. And that's, I found that really scary. I bet.
Ben 42:06
I love that. I love that. I love that answer.
Allegra 42:09
I one thing I always love to do in any book I read is kind of read through the acknowledgments. And one thing that I noticed was that um, you said that the you wrote the book, and I think six states and five countries over the course of like, however many years I'm curious, kind of, yeah, what was the what did that look like for you writing this novel? Are you doing a lot of residencies or? Yeah, I'm, I move around a lot. Maybe it could be because I'm a Sagittarius. And I just want to wanderlust. But I think it also is just the the heart but the cold, hard economics of trying to exist as a writer. And I moved around, also try to go to different opportunities. So I started writing the novel in Arizona at my grad school. And then, like many graduates of MFA, I was grasping at what to do next and how to support myself while I was writing. And I was lucky enough to get a Fulbright. So I went to Bulgaria did some writing there. And in other places in Europe, as well, and then coming back to the US, I knew I could not afford to live in New York City and still have time to write. So I moved to Houston, because it was more affordable, but still has just like incredible arts community. So I lived there for three years. And I miss it every day, because it just is a really amazing, amazing place. And I think just moving around and so there were some residencies in there. Moving around was really about like, How can I maximize the amount of time I can spend on working on this novel, while also like having a place to live and earning some money and it was it was really hard and it's like moving makes it hard to write to because you're like trying to settle into it a new space, but I don't know I'm always I'm someone who just draws a lot from from place and from the different ecologies of a place and like people that I meet, so it's also stimulating it also really feeds the reading practice and just everything that I'm doing, but it was it was really difficult to
Ben 44:44
I kind of want to ask you that just because it almost is feeling like a reoccurring theme with some of the people that we've been talking to you this last year which is like the realities of of kind of the practicalities of life and also the dreams that you're Working towards wanting to make writing work, but also like, yeah, like needing to make enough money to stay indoors and eat food, which are also nice things. And so like, what does that felt like for you? What does that look like for you balancing those two things?
Allegra 45:14
Well, I think it has meant round for one thing to just meet those other opportunities, it has meant being willing to just maybe live in some situations that were uncomfortable, and just know that making art in this case felt more important, and then having some nice stuff, or having an apartment that was not full of fleas. We got to hear that not gonna let that slide. Well, okay, so while I was living in Houston, some raccoons moved into the attic of the, like, larger building that I was in and roommates. They, they are not so high genic. And, like, all things were just totally flea infested. And I, it was a, it was not a highlight. But it, it was a chance to end up having to bathe my cat, which I don't know, if you've ever bathed a cat. It's, it's, it's horrifying and kind of hilarious, because they get so much with their fur kind of wet, they get so small. So I mean, she hated it, we hated it, too. But like, it was also kind of funny. And eventually, the issue did subside. But I think, you know, if, if I had had more just spare income, or had a job that wasn't kind of random freelance editing, or teaching, I probably would have been like, I'm, I can't live in this, this apartment, I got to live in a better place, I've got to, you know, just have more creature comforts, you know, have, I think kind of making these choices all the time to prioritize art as much as I could just came with, came with costs, and I'm grateful that it worked out. But I also really empathize with with the struggle of finding time and also trying to stay alive, quite frankly. Because the stress, financial stress, you know, the health the cost on your body can just be so, so hard. And I think that's why it's just, it's a People always complain about resources for young writers say and how the can that it's ageist etc. And there are cases to be made for it being ages, but at the same time, I think it's so important that resources are out there for for emerging writers for young writers just so that they can get their, their foot in the door and get those projects made. Because otherwise, it's it's just, it's just incredibly difficult. Did you grow up kind of imagining yourself as like, being somebody who was invested in writing I don't know if he was a writer necessarily, but I think I myself like I write a lot now but I definitely didn't grow up. I grew up like hating English was probably like one of my least favorite subjects. And lo and behold, it's like two masters degrees later somehow that kid ended up being a writer. I'm curious kind of what was your, your relationship to writing in your childhood and, and whatnot? I'll tell you what, I really want to know what the switch was for you like, yeah, how do you go from hating writing to, to masters? Yeah, I mean, you know, I grew up going to I went to a public school and I was like, really falling behind in English. And I had to do like, extra help classes and things like that. And I think this was probably like, second or third grade. So I think at that age as this kind of like, Fuck this, you know, I don't want to, I don't like English. I don't like reading. I'm bad at it. So for probably up through high school, I was like, I'm going to be a Science Kid, you know, while also not being very good at that, at least from my recollection. And honestly, I mean, it is kind of like the Hallmark story, but I had a a English teacher in high school who, you know, one day I must have been writing during that time period. I had asked her if she could like, look at this novel. I was working on it. And she's like, Yeah, you can come during my, like 10 minute break. And basically she would meet with me like every 10 minute break for my, the rest of the day. This is my junior year of high school through like the rest of high school. And basically just edit this completely horrible novel with with me. And then from there you guys like, oh, maybe I could do this. So, yeah, it was kind of, I think I probably just needed that positive reinforcement for something that I was already doing. That's amazing. And, yeah, a million shout outs to the good teachers of the world shout Schaefer. I don't know, I guess I really wasn't one of those people who grew up being like, I'm going to be a writer Do or die. And I think that was in part because both my parents were had had tried to pursue the arts. My mom tried to pursue writing and my dad tried to pursue painting and they ended up kind of going into adjacent fields. My dad was a public art teacher, high school art teacher, and my mom was a librarian. And so I think I just had a complex about pursuing art, the arts, and not like hitting a wall of some kind. And I just recognized that there, there wasn't a ton of money to be had in this field. So even though I was kind of doing creative things, I, I went to college being like, I'm gonna be an economist, because that's a surefire way to success. But it was really clear really early that that was not my forte. And I think I and I did not, I wasn't like an English major, or creative writing major, but I was, I couldn't resist taking those classes, and also a lot of studio art classes. I, I majored in American Studies. And then after, after college, I did an environmental fellowship, I was backpacking around New Zealand after that. And I just realized that I really wouldn't be happy unless I was writing that I wouldn't have like a sense of meaning and fulfillment, if I wasn't making stuff. And and from there, I decided to go to grad school and not look back, basically. But I truly tried really hard to do other things and just couldn't, couldn't find traction, you know, I had, I would have, it would have been great to be able to be a scientist, you know, but it just like it wasn't where my heart was at when I was honest with myself. What was your, your Fulbright, what do you what do you pursue for that year? I was in a, I was a English teacher. So I was in a, in a school. And I think one of the highlights of that experience was running a creative writing club, with the students and this high school and, and putting together a literary magazine with them. So that was, that was really fun. That's awesome.
Ben 53:36
Ben, yeah, one of the things that you just to kind of circle back to the, just because I think we're talking about it or talking about it in some ways. And I just wanted to ask you, like, in some ways, I think this book is might be the answer, but how do you think about, you know, grappling with climate change, and that kind of, can hang over your head, you know, concerns about the future, or concerns about the world concerns about whether I'm doing enough. And like the day to day, you know, I think I think something that I've been feeling a lot lately, especially in the era of COVID is like, wow, I'm going to work. And I sit down at my desk sometimes. And what am I to like, what is the purpose of this? Does this have any value? If you know, the world is in the midst of all of these different calamities, and so I'm wondering if you can just talk about for you what that looks like.
Allegra 54:31
Yeah, I don't know that I have a perfect answer for this at all. Because it's, or anything, but when I think I too, as I've said, like, grapple with it every single day. But I think one of the ways I think about it is and this is a kind of piece of advice that I got from an environmental educator was recognizing that It every, every person has a sphere of influence of some kind, and kind of no matter your occupation, obviously, you might have a bigger sphere of influence if you're like a senator or something in some ways, but we all have a community that we're interacting with in some way, we have certain choices that we are able to make within our maybe our work environment in some, some capacity. So on one hand, just kind of looking at what is my sphere of influence? And how can I show up in a way that kind of pushes forth? My, my values? And the kind of environmental ideas that I want to have out there? How can I, how can I do that every single day. And then, but I think that has to be paired with just a recognition that climate change isn't, isn't ultimately, like our responsibility as individuals so much as a structural problem, that is, like the the real offenders are corporations, fossil fuel companies, and to sort of just like, shoulder, the whole weight of climate change as, as just people is a losing game. So I think it is kind of, I think, when it comes to addressing climate change, kind of being being just aware of the the larger structural apparatus that are in motion and being ready to, I don't know, participate in a mass mobilization should it come could also be useful, and like, kind of just mentally having the a mind that is open to that possibility. seems important as well, and not just shutting down the, the possibility for big change, because I, I do think that that that could happen. And if we we have to at least believe that it could happen if, if it if it ever is going to. Yeah, and I mean, think about the fact that like, the green New Deal was a phrase that meant nothing a couple of years ago, but it has like, great gain traction is just a possibility and is, like, so much more mainstream now. And I think that's been part of just people opening their minds and their imaginations to that. That possibility. And so I guess that's what kind of what I'm what I mean. Yeah, I think speaking to that, I was listening to another conversation that you had with I don't remember right now, but you are talking about fiction writers and, or maybe just writers in general, and kind of engaging with climate change in their work. I didn't actually get to finish the quote. So I'd love for you to just hear a little bit about like you talking through, like, what are things that writers can be doing? Or what are what are some ways that writers can engage with climate change on the page? Or, like, how do you envision that? Well, I think writers, artists can, can and should continue imagining better futures and like, the logistical path to those better futures. And, you know, it's useful to use our imaginative energy to, to imagine, you know, societal collapse, and that certainly has its its purpose, too. But we can also imagine the opposite. And that that can be a way to give people the kind of mental handholds to figure it out in the real world. And then in a more kind of subtle way, bringing just the natural world into your writing, in a way that kind of implicitly applies value to it seems important to me, kind of whether your characters are, you know, directly thinking about the environment around them, and how they impact it and how it impacts them. You can still have that that relationship happening on the page. And I think, you know, a book that is kind of obsessed with, say, like, brands and corporations and putting that language and that diction on the page is, is in a way I think it can be a way of like overvaluing those things and I think a book that's like paying attention to botanical terms and meteorological terms and kind of implicitly valuing them in that way can can be useful too.
Ben 1:00:03
I love that. What's Is there something we haven't asked you about this book, you know, or about your life that you that you want to say that you want to, you know, put out there I just we have to, we have to ask because there's always a chance. Maybe there's something we're not asking you like, listen, just this one
Allegra 1:00:35
might say anything I want I'm, I'm just gonna say that I hope that people don't give up on our, our future, basically. And that, for all the challenges that are ahead, in the best and worst case scenarios, I still think like, we have to believe a better future as possible in order to, to make it fit all of the viable kind of reality. So that's my message. Thank you.
Ben 1:01:16
Is there a portion of the book that you would be interested in and maybe just reading?
Allegra 1:01:22
I'm sure. How, how much are you looking for? What was that one section band was like two to 13 Was it?
Ben 1:01:35
It is. It is about a paragraph but i It's on 213. It's about oceans and memory. It's real good.
Allegra 1:01:44
Yeah. Why don't I read that right now?
Ben 1:01:47
I mean, no pressure. If there's another section I don't want to know swear your hand. I think I just also really love that section.
Allegra 1:01:55
I think that's a good one. All right, here we go. The same marine biologist who told me about the ocean hole, also described how the ocean keeps a record of all our actions. The water he told me, absorbs the heat of human industry and holds it in a vast liquid memory. The intense storms we experience now are manifestations of decisions made decades before and the storms of the future evermore violent, evermore devastating. will be this present resurging as the past. Isn't that interesting? He said the ocean never forgets. Allegra, thank you so much for coming on. And you know, talking with us about the book and life and giving us some some writing tips was really, really great to read your novel and to talk with you. Yeah, I this was such a such a pleasure. Thank you for having me.